TJ Kartes started working with cover crops on the family farm several years ago and has been hooked ever since.
The southern Minnesota native now works for Saddle Butte, Ag, selling cover crop and forage seeds in the Dakotas, Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Missouri and his home state.
For this episode of Cover Crop Strategies, brought to you by Verdesian Life Sciences, we’re tapping into TJ’s knowledge about all things cover crops, from seeding tips to some of the biggest challenges his customers face.
We’ll also get TJ’s take on equipment trends, potential regulations, cover crop myths and why farmers shouldn’t wait until the last minute to order seeds for the fall.
The Cover Crop Strategies podcast series is brought to you by Verdesian Life Sciences.
At Verdesian Life Sciences, we believe that supplying healthy water and soil for the next generation is just as important as supplying efficient nutrients for every crop farmers grow. For us, sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. That’s why we call ourselves The Nutrient Use Efficiency People. We have dedicated ourselves to providing prescriptive nutrient use efficiency solutions that improve plant uptake and reduce fertilizer losses, helping preserve the environment and make the most of your investment. Learn more at vlsci.com or talk to your ag retailer today about Verdesian products.
Full Transcript
Noah Newman:
Great to have you with us on another edition of Cover Crop Strategies. I'm your host, Noah Newman. Before we get started, let's thank our sponsor. They have a special message for you. At Verdesian Life Sciences, we believe that supplying healthy water and soil for the next generation is just as important as supplying efficient nutrients for every crop farmers grow. For us, sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. That's why we call ourselves the nutrient use efficiency people.
Noah Newman:
We have dedicated ourselves to providing prescriptive nutrient use, efficiency solutions that improve plant uptake and reduce fertilizer losses, helping preserve the environment and make the most of your investment. Learn more at www.vlsci.com or talk to your Ag retailer today about Verdesian products.
Noah Newman:
This week, we're joined by TJ Kartes. He started working with cover crops on his family farm many years ago, and he is been hooked ever since. The Southern Minnesota native now works for Saddle Butte Ag, selling cover crop and Ford seeds in the Dakotas, Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Missouri and of course, his home state. For this episode of cover crop Strategies, we are going to tap into TJ's knowledge about all things cover crops from seeding tips to some of the biggest challenges customers come across. We'll also get TJ's take on equipment trends, potential regulations, cover crop myths, and why farmers shouldn't wait until the last minute to order those seeds for the fall. Without further ado, here's TJ.
TJ Kartes:
My name's TJ Kartes. I live in Southern Minnesota. I'm a Regional representative for Saddle Butte Ag out of Kangen, Oregon, which is all of [inaudible 00:01:40] valley. I cover five Northern states for Saddle Butte, so I cover the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin. I do some work in Nebraska, Northern Missouri. So, I cover a lot of the area of the U.S. Where this is not supposed to work and we make cover crops work in those areas. I have many dealers and distributors I work with and we are a nationwide seed supplier for cover crop and Ford seed.
Noah Newman:
When we look at our survey data and the trends of cover crop in the United States, so many no tillers do it. But on the other hand, when you look at people who practice conventional tillage, overall on the country, I believe the most recent USDA census of agriculture, I think it was 3.9% total cover crops in the country. In your experience, why are certain people most hesitant about trying to implement cover crops in their operation?
TJ Kartes:
I go back to one thing all the time and I call it the fear factor. And it's the three big Fs. It's the fear of failure, the fear of change, and the fear of equipment. And I think that's a lot of this is the fear factor in this where guys, they're not sure how to make this work, and they're not sure who they should ask. And of course the guys that are doing it maybe are really advanced in it. And they feel that if they go talk to them, they're maybe going to be looked down upon or, well, you should have come earlier, we've been doing this for a while. Farmers are great guys. They really are. And they network together well, but at times they can be very standoffish too about niche, practice changes.
TJ Kartes:
Some of the other issues we've had is the agronomy fields have not really kept up with our changing times in my personal feeling. And a lot of the agronomists really don't know how to handle the cover crops. And it's a disconnect and we're working really hard. We have [inaudible 00:03:44] people that are really going to help educate and work with large co-ops and large retailers on how their agronomists can fit into this and how it's going to work for them.
TJ Kartes:
So, I think there's a lot of fear. And then the equipment change. Guys will say, Well, I'm not a no tiller, so I don't have a planter that's going to plant into this stuff. The factors of how do you make it work, equipment changes and can you get terminated? Is it going to get away from you? Your agronomy support has been lacking some too, and I'm not picking on agronomists at Co-ops or retailers at all. They're great people. They do an excellent job. They work really hard with the producers, but we're trying to work closer with them on showing them how to make this work so everybody can get on board with this.
Noah Newman:
Yeah. And what would you recommend as the first step someone should take, if they're thinking about getting into cover crops? What do you say to someone when you meet with someone who's coming to you for the first time about starting to plant cover crops in their operation?
TJ Kartes:
So, a series of questions that myself and my dealers work with, because we train really hard on this is. We started asking a series of questions. Number one is, Okay, are you comfortable with something overwintering? If you're not, then we'll go with the winter kill mix. And if something does escape, it's not huge. If you're okay with overwintering, where I tell guys to start is corn to beans is really a great starting point, going to cover crop. And especially if you're no tilling already. So you go corn to beans, you use cereal rye. We're starting to work with more of Nebraska's. Our kale works well when our camelina working well, we're trying to work on more legumes at that point, but sometimes in front of a bean or a soybean, you don't need legumes, but cereal rise really easy starting point from corn to beans.
TJ Kartes:
If you have beans, the corn is where you want to start. We tell everybody, maybe you're not ready for the over wintering. If you have corn silage, if you have canyon crops or small grains, there's a great starting point for you. Because you can do a little bit more diverse mix, see a lot of benefits out of it, working forwards. That way has been really terrific, but it depends on your operation. If you're just a corn and soybean producer and this is all you're doing right now, then there's some different verbiage on what you have to do to make this work. And we can make work for most guys really well.
Noah Newman:
You started the podcast off by saying you live in a part of the country where cover crops aren't supposed to work, but you make them work. So going along with that, what would you say is the biggest myth about cover crops?
TJ Kartes:
Well, one of the biggest myths is that it's going to be a yield reduction. We hear that a lot that we're going to lose yield because of using cover crops. And that's not, that's not true at all. We have seen some hiccups where we have not done the best job on the yield side of it, but we usually can understand and we've done it long enough to explain why that has happened. If you're going from corn to beans, it's really easy to get started with. Like I said before, we seen no reduction there and if we have the cost offset of the herbicide and everything and the offset of the input cost has really a real benefit to the cover crop side of it.
Noah Newman:
Gotcha. I remember doing an interview with a cover crop salesman in Iowa, a few months back. And he had mentioned that in his area or in his neck of the woods, that cover crop seed sales have quadrupled over the past year where he was have, have you seen any kind of trend like that in your business?
TJ Kartes:
Yes, yes. We're definitely seeing increases every year. We're seeing more people coming on board. The big push behind this, the underlining push that people don't think about is this is a water quality issue is what it is. We're trying to scavenge and hold nitrogen and phosphate from getting in areas. We don't want it to be. And that's where cover crops really play into this is that reduction in nitrate, leaving the farm is huge. So, when this thing becomes regulated and I believe someday it will become regulated. I do enough working with people in DC that know what's going on in this world, there will be regulations. I'll show up at some point because of the water quality issue. That is the underlining thought here that we should be talking first about is how are we cleaning up our water? We're doing tile line monitoring and showing that we're cleaning up the water. So, yes. Have we seen increases? Absolutely. And that's, I think that's because that underlying current of the water quality is going to be the thing that pushes us down the road farther and farther.
Noah Newman:
Yeah. That was definitely a big motivation with some farmers that I visited in Western Ohio, they talked about how important water quality was. And that was a big reason why they were using cover crops. So, as water quality in your experience, usually the top motivator, I know erosion prevention has to be up there as well.
TJ Kartes:
Right. Erosion prevention, compaction alleviation, water quality issues. Every producer has a certain thing to really get them on board with trying these [inaudible 00:08:39] and some is just a cost reduction. If we can show a cost reduction of 10 or 12% to 15% in inputs in a yield increase or a yield stabilization, there's a real economic benefit to making this all work. So, you know, every producer has a little bit different idea why they want to do it. And once we, once we target that, then we can actually start working forward on a plan for them. But the water quality thing is still the underlying deal here that we need to talk about. Compaction and soil erosion, absolutely. I don't want to lose, I don't want to lose soil off any farms that we work with right now because they're paying seven to $20,000, for grown. You don't want to go anywhere else with staying where it belongs, but the nutrients are a big part of it. They got to stay where they belong to.
Noah Newman:
Yeah. And on the flip side, there's a lot of benefits that come with cover crops. But what are some of the big challenges that growers might face and what are some potential solutions that could go along with some of the challenges that you could think of off the top of your head?
TJ Kartes:
Well, one big thing is application, how are you going to get applied? The Northern region we talked about, we got too sure growing season, it won't work. Not enough growing season in the fall, the wets where the CO ride some of the small grains really work out the over winter Nebraska's are working better, the [inaudible 00:0954] legumes, but we got to know how we're going to get them applied and then the mixes of the ratios. So, that's one issue. Once you start working with companies that really do a lot of this, you start to see the benefits of their services to you of getting stuff to the plane, getting stuff to the high clearance machine, lining up the VTs or the no-till drills. And there's a lot of companies that offer these services and if they're in their area, utilize them, go to them, work with them because they're going to make it very pain free if you can help it
Noah Newman:
Equipment wise, what trends have you seen when it comes to the development of cover crop equipment over the last say, decade? More interseeders being billed, things along that line?
TJ Kartes:
Oh, that's a huge thing is we have developed so much equipment in the last five years. And especially in the last 10 years of innerseeders, high clearance machines, vertical tills with seed boxes on them. I have guys that are modifying no till drills. I have guys that are modifying normal drills to drill just between the rows so, they leave where the row is going to be for the next year. The planes have really come a long ways with making sure they know how to set their gates to seat it correctly. I tell everybody, when you start a new situation, producers are so innovative, they'll build it themselves. And then the machinery companies come along and say, oh, we can build that faster and quicker and better. And they do, but we start on the ground level, the boots in the ground and say, what do we need to make this work?
TJ Kartes:
So, we started with interseeders, after we got the planes flying, we started with the early interseeding with using rye grass and those kind of products. We started modifying rotary holes. We started, taking drills and moving the drill units. So creative, and most of the time was stuff they dug out of the back woods and said, I still got this. I could modify this and make it work. And we did. And then the machinery companies come along and said, Hey, we could build those. And yes they can. So they do. I think it's just been fantastic. The amount of equipment that's been designed, the seed boxes to handle multi species, cover crops and seed them correctly. The wheels that they've come up with two meter out this stuff. So, we're getting the correct [inaudible 00:12:15] out there. We want to the backing disc for Kinzie planters and other planters, they can plant the cover crops at angles or into bios strip tills, fantastic work. I applaud machinery people. I applaud producers for building it. And then machinery people come along and say, Hey, we can do this. We can help with this. Because it's really been terrific.
Noah Newman:
Yeah, last week we had a father and a son on the podcast who built our own 12 row interseeder out in the Green Bay Area. So, that was pretty cool. Yeah.
TJ Kartes:
I love stuff like that where guys will say, here's what I want to do on my farm. This fits for my operation. So, I got this and I got this and I'm going to build it, make it work. And that's just to me been terrific because then the neighbor build one and then the neighbor builds one and it really works out well.
Noah Newman:
Let's burn a time out, back to the podcast in just a minute, but let's thank our sponsor. Once again, they have a special message for you at Verdesian Life Sciences. We believe that supplying healthy water and soil for the next generation is just as important as supplying efficient nutrients for every crop farmer's grow. For us, sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. That's why we call ourselves the nutrient use efficiency people. We have dedicated ourselves to providing prescriptive nutrient use efficiency solutions that improve plan uptake and reduce fertilizer losses, helping preserve the environment and make the most of your investment. Learn more at vlsci.com or talk to your ag retailer today about Verdesian products. Now, back to the podcast.
Noah Newman:
In terms of seeding recommendations, is it just a deal where it depends on your region or your operation, or is there one specific way that you would recommend to seed cover crops?
TJ Kartes:
I always tell everybody, I love to have like a four or six prong pitch fork. A three prong pitch fork, you only pick up so much stuff. So, I like to have multiple ways of doing it. And it depends on your crop. You know, if you're coming out of small greens, you have more of a window to see more things seed to soil contact, depending on the mixes, becomes very critical at times. So if you're, if you're flying stuff on, you have to make sure what you're flying on or you of these high clearance machines, what they're spreading is going to grow. So you have to have stuff that can be thrown out on top of the ground with a little bit of water, a little bit of doing it's going to germinate get in the ground. And then there's crops that you have to actually physically put in the ground.
TJ Kartes:
So, the time of year becomes part of it. So, I tell everybody, when companies come with these standard mixes, that work everywhere, I always question some of that because they'll work here, but it really doesn't work over here. So, a lot of our clients have put in their own blending facilities or we found ways to blend seed so that we can do multimixes based on, what are your goals? What's your equipment for application? What's your timing? And then we build a mix around that.
Noah Newman:
Gotcha. We've seen a couple articles recently that talked about cover crop seed potential shortages, or supplies being tight. Is that something you've run into at all?
TJ Kartes:
Yeah. It's like everything else, as we grow, as an industry grows, there's always going to be growing pains. Yes, we are probably going to be tighter on things again. I think there's a fairly good supply moving out there right now, but I tell everybody, don't wait until September one to start ordering your cover crop. See if you know you need something, you should probably get it ordered and come your way as fast as you can. And take it now. Don't wait to take it for another month. Take it now, because we are in August and guys will start seeding very soon. So, I think we could see some tightness in the market. I would not say there's going to be a real shortage where you won't get something, but you might have to tweak your species around a little bit. Is that is, that is about politically correct as I can say that?
Noah Newman:
Yeah.
TJ Kartes:
Yes, there is going to be some things we will run out of. So, it's like everything else. If you wait until the 11th hour to order your seed, you might not get exactly what you want, but there'll be stuff you can plant.
Noah Newman:
So, basically just don't wait until the last minute.
TJ Kartes:
Yeah. And we tell everybody that, we've really started to work with producers where this is part of their cropping system now. So, they're buying their corning soybeans in November. We're meeting with guys at that time already putting their plan together for the next year. And we have some guys that are doing prepay. We have guys that are saying, well, lock this in and coming to me in June and I'll pay for it. I want the seed in July, so I'm ready to go. Because this is becoming part of their operation. And because of it's part of their operation, it's helping us as an industry to make sure there's going to be enough speed. So, in the Willamette Valley, they plant a lot of stuff, they're harvesting right now. Harvest is in full swing out there. They're harvesting dry grass and turnips and radishes and combines and seed plants are running wide open.
TJ Kartes:
If they know we need something for next year, they'll start planting. Now we're planning to plant early so they can take it out again. So, we start projecting sales already now for next year. So, as an industry, we're constantly looking into this crystal ball saying at the next show, what's the next species the guy's going to talk about that. He had good luck with it. I'm going to have a hundred calls after that meeting. And it's something we don't have or nobody's raising yet, or one guy raised it. So, with early planning, like in November, December, early January, we can tweak out in the valley, something that could be raised that could be planted in March or April and harvested in June or July. So, we could have it here in the Midwest.
Noah Newman:
So, I know you just got back from the National Strip Till conference out in Iowa City last week. What were your big takeaways from that? And our strip tillers embracing the cover crop trend as much as no tillers are?
TJ Kartes:
I think they're starting to embrace it a lot more. I think one of the questions we always hear is, if I bulk spread this and I incorporated in with my strip till pass, I'm wasting the money. And I always go back to, kind of, but if you seeded in September or end of August and it grows until the end of October, end of November, you got 25, 30 days worth of growth. You got three, four inches on top 12, 14 inches underneath and you work it in your grandparents called that green manure. And it was a huge benefit they thought. And it was. So, doing that maybe isn't always bad. We've seen equipment being modified. A lot of the strip till units are coming out where they can seed covers in between the strips as your strip tilling. Great. Once again, equipment manufacturers here is seeing a need, jump on board, say how do we make this work?
TJ Kartes:
And they did it. There's a lot of those out there like that. So, we are hearing more of it, the drill modification, where they're leaving a zone to strip till and they're seeing the covers with a drill. So, we're seeing so many different options that yes, they're adopting it more and they're they're understanding why they want to adopt it more. And I think that's great. I really believe that has really helped us push this along with the guys wanting use cover crops, they're seeing a benefit to it. And a lot of guys got up and spoke about how they are using covers and have seen a benefit from it.
Noah Newman:
Yeah, strip till innovator of a year, Brian Ryberg, he strip tills sugar beets. He talked about how much cover crops have helped his operation. So, that's a pretty big endorsement right there.
TJ Kartes:
Yep, and he's north of me in Minnesota. He's probably two and a half hours north of where I'm at. So, he's even farther north and cold.
Noah Newman:
Wow.
TJ Kartes:
So yeah, Brian's really a great promoter for us. And 20 inch strips for sugar beets, which is something that you had told sugar beet farmers 10 years ago, you're going to strip till they would've laughed you right off the planet that I said, that would never work here. And they're making it work.
Noah Newman:
Yeah. It's worked really well for him. So I know that.
TJ Kartes:
Yeah, absolutely.
Noah Newman:
You actually had experience working on a farm, right? When you were younger working with cover crops and how much does that help you in your job today, having that experience?
TJ Kartes:
So, actually where I started out was I work in my family farm. My uncle runs it. It's my mom's brother. And the joke always was, is I grew up on one side of the road with my mom and dad. They taught me all the basic stuff. And I went across the road and my grandmother and uncle were there and they taught me all the good things about farming. And so my uncle was a very progressive farmer. His dad passed away when he was really young and he was a very progressive farmer on making changes. So, in 76' he started chisel plowing. In 1987, we went to Ridge chill and everybody told him, you're going to go blow this whole work. You can't do this here. And we kept making it work. And I got to really be part of that operation for many, many years.
TJ Kartes:
And still very much in that operation. I just do a different role on being like the seed supplier and the seed service person. And he raises oats for our company and I buy those back from him. So, I'm still very in tuned with the operation. I live on one of the farms. So, I watch this stuff right around me all day long going on, but it's been great to see a prog a person, very progressive in change to say, just because we did this 10 years ago, doesn't mean we have to keep doing it. What's the next best thing. What's a better thing. How can I improve the environment? And he's very much an environmentalist. He believes in water quality. And I got to grow up watching this and somebody who wasn't scared to say, I don't care what they're doing. I don't think that's right. I'm going to do it this way.
TJ Kartes:
So, it really helped me. And in 2012 we started cover cropping on that farm and we progressed each of the third crop and multi-species, and it's been a great transformation and I've got to be hands on watching, digging, looking at this. One point, and if anybody remembers Memorial day this week, this year, especially in the upper Midwest, we had a terrible wind storm. The wind blew all day Memorial day, you could hardly see. We sat out in our garage and had a little cookout in about a 60 mile an hour wind because everything was no tilling covered around us. And no dirt was flying. And you looked at either direction. You couldn't have been outside because you'd been sandblasted from the dirt flying.
Noah Newman:
Wow.
TJ Kartes:
That right there should have been a testimony to all of our neighbors. Just say, what's he doing over there? I think I knew we had corn that got cut off some, we got beans that got cut off some from the wind damage and my uncle's stuff was standing there proud. We had a neighbor across the road that started with us last year. His stuff looked great where they'd work. Some beans looked a little tougher, and he put a couple posts on social media about, well maybe I really got to really look at this harder now. That's a great testimony right there. Somebody saying, I need to look at this harder.
Noah Newman:
Definitely that says it all. I'm going to ask you to stare into your crystal ball. So, 10 years from now, what's your prediction for the biggest trend or the direction that cover crops are going to go 10 years from now? What are we going to say when we look back on 2022?
TJ Kartes:
Well, we'll say one or two things. Either we'll say those guys were nuts, I don't know what they're doing or what I think what I really think will happen down the road is, and I hate to say these words and I hope it doesn't bite me. I think there will be mandated rules that'll come to us because of this water quality, soil erosion issues. And I think because of that, we will adopt this. I think there's guys that are adopting it right now. So, I think in 10 years, our landscape is really going to look different out here. There's many reasons the carbon credit market, the eco service marketing consortium, there's other companies too, that are working on multiple different ways for benefits to pay producers, to keep involved with this. I think we're going to see a lot more in the landscape.
TJ Kartes:
The tough part is there will be some guys that will just will fight it right to the end. And the scary part is, if you look at the average age of our producers, it's like 60 or 61 years of age and 10 years they're in their seventies. Somebody will also probably run these farms by then. And I'm hoping that people that are doing it are very... I'm not saying these guys aren't land stewardship oriented, they very much are. But we have to also have a balance of two things. One, is land stewardship, conservation. The other thing has to be economics. You've got to be profitable doing all this. There's got to be a profit in it for everybody. Because if we're not profitable, we're not going to be here. So, when I do my talks, that's one thing I talk about is profitability and how this works. But I think in 10 years we will see a lot more on the landscape. I think there'll be areas that will still be fighting it. I'm just hoping we don't have to have rules and regulations to make it happen, but I'm scared that's what's going to happen.
Noah Newman:
There you go. Well, Hey, maybe 10 years from now, if we're both still doing this, we'll connect again and revisit, play this clip and see how accurate you were.
TJ Kartes:
Yeah. Archive this thing, put it in a time capsule and pop it open in 10 years. And I'm still kicking, which I hope I am.
Noah Newman:
You and me both.
TJ Kartes:
Check with me and say, now, where are we at now? And maybe I'll say right where I thought we were going to be. Or we took a 180 somewhere along the line.
Noah Newman:
It'll be interesting to look. It's crazy how fast time flies though? You were just saying, 2012 is when you first got involved in cover cropping. Boom. We're 10 years later, already here in 2022.
TJ Kartes:
Wow. I think that's the crazy part is, I'm 54 years old. I'm not trying to date myself but I'm 54 and I look back and say, Jesus, just the other day, I was 30 and actually moved our youngest child over to college yesterday. And I'm thinking he just was born like a couple days ago, wasn't he? And he's off to college. So yeah, time doesn't, and I think that whole thing that speeds up the older you get, well, that wheel spinning pretty fast for me right now. And I didn't think it was going to do that, but I guess it actually does happen that way.
Noah Newman:
Yeah, every year just goes faster and faster. Well, this has been a great conversation before we let you go. Anything else you'd like to add?
TJ Kartes:
One thing I'd like to say is, if you're going to do this, find a reputable source. There's many of us out here that do a great job. Look us up, work with us. There's many companies that do this, and if applications, part of it, look into that. Find good reparable people that are going to do a planes, VTs, whatever it is. Just try to do the best job you can, work with people that are reparable. You know where the seeds come from, you know their background, you know what they're trying to accomplish. And it's a team effort. It's a big team effort. I talk about this all the time, a team effort. My part is a cover crop. Your agronomist is taking care of the rest of this stuff. You're the producer. Let's all join the team and work together in the same direction. Don't fight each other. So, order early, work with a reputable source. I'll use the Larry the cable guy analogy. Let's get her done. Somebody could govern us someday and you just don't want that to happen.
Noah Newman:
That was TJ Kartes. Thanks again to TJ for joining us on this week's podcast. And before we go, let's once again, thank Verdesian Life Sciences, our sponsor. They have a special message for you. At Verdesian Life Sciences. We believe that's supplying healthy water and soil for the next generation is just as important as supplying efficient nutrients for every crop farmer's grow. For us, sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. That's why we call ourselves the nutrient use efficiency people. We have dedicated ourselves to providing prescriptive nutrient use efficiency solutions that improve plan uptake and reduce fertilizer losses, helping preserve the environment and make the most of your investment. Learn more vlsci.com or talk to your ag retailer today about Verdesian products. Thanks again for joining us on this week's edition of Cover Crop Strategies. Until next week, remember for all things cover crops, head to covercropstrategies.com.
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